Blitzen
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What makes a story YA?
Yep, that's pretty much all I got...
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10/29/2009, 10:48 am
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Firlefanz
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Re: What makes a story YA?
- Characters that fit the target age (a little bit older, actually).
- Stories that contain less bloody violence than "adult stories".
- No graphic sex. Love is okay, a little kiss, too - depending on the publisher, though.
- A tale that fits the target, usually it involves a character "growing up".
Does that help?
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10/29/2009, 3:21 pm
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David Meadows
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Re: What makes a story YA?
I read a review recently that claimed all YA stories must be "coming of age" stories.
I don't know if that's really true, though.
---
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10/29/2009, 3:28 pm
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Reythia
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Re: What makes a story YA?
I don't think all YA stories need to be "coming of age" tales. A lot of them are, yes, but I think that's more a product of the usual age of the characters than anything else. Think about the "Nancy Drew" or "Hardy Boys" tales. I wouldn't call them "coming of age" stories, but they're definitely YA.
One thing also to keep in mind is that the plot needs to be less complex. Not simple, and certainly not trivial, but more straight-forward. I had expected that to be limiting, but it really wasn't. You can still include twists and turns -- you just need to make those turns clear to the reader, so the kiddies don't get confused.
Also, the line between "good" and "bad" should be (at least by the end of the book) clear. Sometimes in adult books, there's more of a grey zone, but that's a lot harder to pull off in YA. Your readers will generally WANT a clear ending and a clear "bad guy".
Other than that, I'll just say "ditto" to Firle's list.
Thinking of writing a YA story, Trying? I recently wrote one (the first I'd tried) and it was really a lot of fun. One of the things I liked about writing kids'/YA fiction is that the chapters are relatively short -- and thus you really have to make sure you're being concise and not just sprawling across the page when you write. Have fun!
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10/29/2009, 4:18 pm
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dragonlady
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Re: What makes a story YA?
When you say YA do you mean children or teenage?
Because some of the stuff people are saying sounds more like children's books than teenage books to me. But I don't really know what the age definition of YA actually is.
In our Teenage section at work (I work in a public library, in case anyone didn't know/forgot) we have a wide range of stories with varying complexity and themes. We have a Teenage Reading Group and the staff members who run that read stories which completely engross them, even though they are well-read adults.
Plus there is a market for books which deal with serious themes (sex, drugs, homelessness, bullying, pregnancy, etc.) from a teenagers point of view.
I think almost any kind of story can be made Teen, as long as any sex or violence isn't gratuitous and serves to illustrate a point or highlight an issue.
As for children's books they obviously need to have appropriate themes and material for children. However I'm not sure how simplistic they need to be (assuming this is for the older end of the under-13 age range). I mean Diana Wynne Jones writes mostly for children and her plots aren't simple, and can get a bit involved.
Also although black/white morality is common, a little bit of grey can be involved, especially if a character is to be redeemed or shown from a different viewpoint. Philip Reeve (who writes childrens and teen books) is very good at constructing plots where characters at conflict can both be understood by the reader.
One of the best things about YA fiction -from a genre point of view- is that you can make things a bit whackier, and a bit more far fetched. Children find it easier to suspend their disbelief, to accept the world the author presents them with. I think this is why you get some interesting fantasy ideas from childrens authors, because they aren't having to avoid/fight against adult cynicism and preconceptions.
If you want to write a story about how telephones work because tiny squids swim up and down the wires carrying messages you can write it for children. Then you don't have to explain how the squids breath or talk or anything.
Just a random example I made up there, but I think it illustrates my point.
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10/29/2009, 6:36 pm
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Blitzen
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Re: What makes a story YA?
I was thinking of actually adapting a story to fit YA. I could edit down the sex scenes, and the violence isn't exactly violent.
How strict is the "character must be a kid" because mine isn't.
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10/30/2009, 11:56 am
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David Meadows
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Re: What makes a story YA?
I know I was reading stories about adults when I was in my early teens, so I wouldn't say it mattered. But I think the market might be different today. I don't know, as I don't buy many modern books, but all the big names seem to have teen characters: Harry Potter, Twilight, etc.
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10/30/2009, 4:22 pm
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Reythia
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Re: What makes a story YA?
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
I know I was reading stories about adults when I was in my early teens, so I wouldn't say it mattered. But I think the market might be different today. I don't know, as I don't buy many modern books, but all the big names seem to have teen characters: Harry Potter, Twilight, etc.
Yeah. I was reading "teen" books in elementary school, and "adult" books as a highschooler. Most of my friends were too. So Dragonlady's comment:
quote:
When you say YA do you mean children or teenage? Because some of the stuff people are saying sounds more like children's books than teenage books to me. But I don't really know what the age definition of YA actually is.
is really relevant to me, too. I honestly don't know what "they" consider YA books to be, versus childrens' books or teen books. I remember as a kid (ie: 8-12 years old) picking books at bookstores from the "young adults" section. Those included "Nancy Drew", "Animal Inn", "The Three Investigators", "Babysitters' Club", and "The Dark is Rising". All of those series (as well as most of the others I read at the time) had teenaged or (occasionally) college-aged protagonists. They're generally books I would still consider enjoyable and worth re-reading, but they're NOT what I would really consider "adult" books. The "Harry Potter" series (which I've read) and the "Twilight" series (which I haven't, but friends have told me about) fall into this same category, at least to me. They're fun books made for an audience more mature than little kids' books are. They generally have a more interesting plot than books made for younger kids -- a plot interesting enough to keep an adult's interest.
So I understand the difference between YA books and kids books. What I DON'T understand is the CURRENT definition of an "adult" book. As Meadows insinuated, a lot of adults honestly feel "Harry Potter" is an "adult" book. I profoundly disagree. I think they're books an adult can ENJOY, yes. And there may be some things within them that younger readers don't pick up on or understand fully. But with respect, when I went back and re-read "The Secret Garden" (a classic YA book), I picked up more about the back-story than I ever had when I read in school at age 9. Ditto with other excellent YA books. I think it's a sign of a good author when a YA book can entertain both a 9-year-old and a 29-year-old -- as both "Secret Garden" and "Harry Potter" certainly can.
But I'd argue that there are other books which are either not appropriate for a 9-year-old (regardless of her reading level) or too complex for a 9-year-old to enjoy. THIS is what I categorize as "adult" books. I think most highschoolers can and often do read such books -- certainly I did.
The one category of books I REALLY don't understand is "Teen" books. Now, part of that is simply because when I WAS a teen, there was no such section. Probably similar books existed, but they were either lumped in with YA or adult stories. So... someone help me out here. What exactly IS "teen" fiction? How does it differ from YA or adult fiction?
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10/31/2009, 7:11 pm
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dragonlady
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Re: What makes a story YA?
I expect what we've run into here Rey is different terms for the same thing. I think teen and YA are largely the same thing in this case. Sorry if I've introduced another word and confused people, that wasn't my intent.
I say Teen books because in the library system where I work the three age-related categories are junior, teen and adult. Much of the way I think about age-related book categories probably comes from the working practices I have to use at work.
- Junior books go from babies books right through to 12 (there are subcategories within this, although that mostly relies on the format of the book).
- Teen books are meant for teenagers (simplistic I know, but this system needs to work across a city with a huge young population). Under 13s can borrow teen books only with parental permission -sometimes I feel this is slightly unfair as there is some crossover between junior and teen. That said there are also teen books that deal with serious, grown-up issues, as I mentioned in my previous post.
- Adult books are everything else. Anyone over 13 can take out adult books but under 13s can't. Although I do sometimes let kids have some of the harmless non-fiction like pet books and language books.
These are obviously work guidelines I have to follow and so much of the greater complexity is left out. There are Harry Potter books in adult and junior depending on the cover (seriously) and some authors/books end up in both junior and teen because they are likely to appeal to both. This can make things confusing.
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11/1/2009, 11:59 am
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tryingtowrite
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Re: What makes a story YA?
I've ran into series where one book is called YA and the other adult, and there wasn't anything different about them. Unless you consider one kiss too much for a teen...
Probably the easiest way to find out if your book is YA is to send it to a publisher or agent.
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11/1/2009, 12:48 pm
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Reythia
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Re: What makes a story YA?
quote:
dragonlady wrote:
- Teen books are meant for teenagers (simplistic I know, but this system needs to work across a city with a huge young population). Under 13s can borrow teen books only with parental permission -sometimes I feel this is slightly unfair as there is some crossover between junior and teen. That said there are also teen books that deal with serious, grown-up issues, as I mentioned in my previous post.
I have to admit, my first thought when I read this was skeptical. Not at you, of course, but at the system. Because I was reading ADULT books by age 12. I realize that I was an unusually good and voracious reader -- but I know for a fact I wasn't the ONLY one such. The library I grew up with had a "kids" and an "adults" section on different floors. The books that they labeled "YA" were a segment of the kids' floor. And I know for a fact that by the time I was 10-12, I was reading from BOTH the "adult" and "kids" floors of the library. I remember being annoyed about having to walk up and down the stairs at the time.
So, can I ask for some well-known examples of what your library considers "teen" books? And, to be honest, they'll probably have to be at least 10 years old for me to recognize most of them. I'm curious what sort of books are in that category that any library feels they need to keep a restricting eye on.
Last edited by Reythia, 11/1/2009, 7:05 pm
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11/1/2009, 7:05 pm
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Blitzen
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Re: What makes a story YA?
Vampire diaries are teen. I was reading adult by 11, too. I remember because I started high school at 11, and our library had a lot of adult books in it. It was here I found Terry Pratchett, and Tolkien, for instance.
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11/2/2009, 2:43 pm
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dragonlady
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Re: What makes a story YA?
Rey, I'm not saying I completely agree with the way the system works (there are times I think it's a bit of a shame), but I have to enforce it at work. I was reading some of my dad's books as a child.
We aren't trying to restrict certain books, but the library system does need to have some rules.
There was a recent rule clarification sent out saying we should encourage under 12s to take out children's books. We need to have some kind of rule because then why not let little kids take out romances (I know sounds ridiculous, but that was one of the official lines).
Also if we let a child take out books that a parent doesn't approve of the library could get in trouble (hence needing permission for under 12s to take out teen books).
Another reason is that we don't charge fines on children's tickets so parents might just take their books out on their kids' tickets to avoid paying if they're late.
As for how the books are categorised that is done centrally by our cataloguing service. The record on the computer says whether a book is junior or teen. Some libraries vary their collections and will mingle some teen and junior. The library where I work is one of the stricter branches, others are a bit more lenient with the rules.
As for the kinds of books that are Teen. Philip Pullman's Northern Lights trilogy and his Sally Sparrow trilogy (although most of his other books are junior). The Twilight series, and all the subsequent vampire romances, several are a bit more sexy. Like I said teen books are often about more serious issues. For example we have a book in our collection in which a teenage boy falls in love with a prostitute and tries to save her, I wouldn't just give that to a 12 year old.
As I've said I'm not sure whether what we call teen is the same as YA, it sounds as though YA is a slightly broader and looser category.
---
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11/3/2009, 10:39 am
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Reythia
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Re: What makes a story YA?
 Dragon, I completely understand that the library's rules aren't your fault and of COURSE you have to follow them at work! Don't worry -- I'm irritated at your library, not at you!
I think what really bugs me the most, besides knowing that at your library I wouldn't have been allowed to read Agatha Christie and Isaac Asimov books at age 10-12 (which I did), is the logic behind that. You give a couple of reasons:
quote:
1.) We should encourage under 12s to take out children's books. We need to have some kind of rule because then why not let little kids take out romances
2.) Also if we let a child take out books that a parent doesn't approve of the library could get in trouble (hence needing permission for under 12s to take out teen books).
3.) Another reason is that we don't charge fines on children's tickets so parents might just take their books out on their kids' tickets to avoid paying if they're late.
Now, the third reason is a practical consideration which I can respect. It makes me sad to think that people would misuse a library that way, but I know there are some who would.
But the first and second make me frown. "Why not let little kids take out romances?" and the fear that you could "let a child take out books that a parent doesn't approve of the library" are both things that the library shouldn't need to worry about. The reason is simple: the parent of a 8-12-year-old child ought to be in the library with them, standing next to them at the check-out desk. If they're not and the child comes home with literature the parent doesn't approve of, then it's the PARENT'S responsibility to discipline the child or make sure it doesn't happen again. Since when does a library have the ultimate responsibility to decide what a kid should or should not read? What happened to the idea of a parent being responsible for her child?
Now, I realize that probably your library is just looking for the easy way out. It's EASIER to tell thousands of kids they can't check out any "teen" or "adult" books than it is to deal with even one lawsuit brought on by an angry parent. I can respect that intellectually... but it still makes me angry.
People mature at different rates. Some 12-year-olds would be perfectly capable of absorbing the content of a "Twilight" book -- or an adult romance, for that matter. Others wouldn't. On the other hand, to be frank, there are some 15-year-olds who would have trouble absorbing aspects of "teen" books. I agree that there's a maturity level required before some books should be read. I just don't think it happens at a specific age. The parent ought to have a better clue of what reading level and maturity level their child is at than the library can. It makes me sad to think that any parent would not choose to exercise her veto power if her child picked a book she considered inappropriate. But that's the parent's decision. It almost makes me more sad to see the library indirectly supporting that, by declaring that all childrens' books are "safe" and no teen or adult books are. Everyone here knows that's not true.
I feel bad for the high-reading-level and mature kids who are forced to re-read childrens' books when they are ready to move on to something else. Even assuming such a child's parents give permission for her to check out a "teen" book, the library's policy will make it less likely that she even goes and LOOKS at what books are there. And for her to read an "adult" book, her parents would be forced to bend the rules of the library and take out the book in THEIR names, then give it to their daughter to read. For an attentive family, that's all do-able (and if we'd been stuck with such a limiting library system, I know that's what my family would have done). But I've never thought it was RIGHT to force honest people to work around the system, rather than with it.
I hated being bored all the time in school as a kid. Getting "adult" books from the library was one of the things that kept my interest up. Most of my other graduate school friends had similar experiences. Smart kids usually like to read -- and they don't read even close to grade level. Forcing them to do so (even for the BEST of reasons) is tormenting to them, and bad for society's general future.
*sadness*
--- -- YAR! |
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11/3/2009, 5:12 pm
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BaneBlade
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Re: What makes a story YA?
My daughter was tested on her reading abilities each year. By the beginning of the third grade she was reading at the 12th grade level. Her words per minute were significantly higher than her teacher. What's more she retained it all. By the end of the school year she could no-longer be statistically tracked as the computer system did not rate higher than the college level. I simply sent her with a note saying, 'If she can lift it off the shelf, she can read it.' In my experience there isn't a book in a school library that isn't tame by mainstream standards.
Our public library does not allow children to check out books in there own name until they are 13, I believe, thus insuring that the parents are there to approve of it.
I can't however say that I've done much censoring of my daughters reading material. She seems to have naturally progressed through various stages of approriateness albeit at a slightly increased pace. I remember well, being in late Grade school and Jr. High and knowing far more about "adult topics" than most of the adults around me suspected. While I may not have been mature enough to handle the ramifications, I certainly understood the mechanics far better than the adults around me suspected. Smart children are curious by nature, they will find a source for information.
I've often marveled at Western civilizations habit of sheltering children from adulthood, rather than preparing them for it. This is one of the many reasons why I see myself not as the arbitrater of what information my children will receive, but as the person who offers an ethical context or commentary on it.
Last edited by BaneBlade, 11/3/2009, 7:57 pm
---
...waiting patiently for a few submissions to come back.
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11/3/2009, 7:56 pm
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QS2
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Re: What makes a story YA?
Isn't it great that some of us seem to progress so much intellectually these days?  In all seriousness this really is an era that allows those with the ability to learn and have a chance atleast to reach somewhere near their potentials.
As for adulthood... are we sure that our concept of it is something we must achieve? Some times I wonder... seriously... some times I wonder if some of the ways children think naturally might not be better. Like for instance hmmm, how they tend to want to know how things work.  In a way they might actually have some good habits that some people later in 'adulthood' seem to lose. I suspect quite a few reasons could be found for the extended childhood these days, but quite a few might come down to how much more there is to learn these days. 
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11/4/2009, 12:53 am
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Reythia
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Re: What makes a story YA?
quote:
QS2 wrote:
some times I wonder if some of the ways children think naturally might not be better. Like for instance hmmm, how they tend to want to know how things work.
...You mean, I'm not SUPPOSED to immediately want to take everything apart and see what the insides look like? Or worse, ask, "Hey, wait a second! Think about what you just said logically for a bit."
This is why I became an engineer.
--- -- YAR! |
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11/4/2009, 2:20 am
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QS2
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Re: What makes a story YA?
In the old days, that was the consensus about adults. More belief and less curiosity and all that you know. 
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11/4/2009, 9:13 am
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Loud G
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Re: What makes a story YA?
Yeah, I've never understood the arbitrariness of YA vs Adult books either.
(by adult I do not mean sleezy, that is one definition of 'adult' that I find very annoying)
I too read books from all over the spectrum from an early age.
I think a different sort of classification would be better. Perhaps a rating as with movies, or something....
There are many adult books that are just fine for even 8 year olds. However there is no system to know what the content of a book is ahead of time.
I personally would LOVE a content advisory system. I HATE to put down a book because there is hugely graphic sex or what have you. But I will and I have. Some warning would have been nice.
--- Reading: Mistborn
Writing: Eriadhin
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11/5/2009, 2:31 pm
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David Meadows
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Re: What makes a story YA?
quote:
Loud G wrote:
I personally would LOVE a content advisory system. I HATE to put down a book because there is hugely graphic sex or what have you. But I will and I have. Some warning would have been nice.
On the other hand, I don't mind a graphic sex scene, but if a book had a sticker saying WARNING! GRAPHIC SEX! then I would be too embarrassed to buy it 
---
"A good idea will keep you awake during the morning, but a great idea will keep you awake during the night."
Marilyn vos Savant
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11/5/2009, 3:44 pm
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Loud G
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Re: What makes a story YA?
HA! perhaps not a sticker but a little code or something on the back cover
--- Reading: Mistborn
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11/5/2009, 3:45 pm
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Reythia
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Re: What makes a story YA?
quote:
David Meadows wrote:
quote:
Loud G wrote:
I personally would LOVE a content advisory system. I HATE to put down a book because there is hugely graphic sex or what have you. But I will and I have. Some warning would have been nice.
On the other hand, I don't mind a graphic sex scene, but if a book had a sticker saying WARNING! GRAPHIC SEX! then I would be too embarrassed to buy it
HAHAHA! That's really, really a funny image! And I totally agree. I've read some books (the "Kushiel" books by Jacqueline Carey come immediately to mind) which had a lot of plot-driven graphic sex/violence, but were still excellent. But... well, if that was shown on the cover, I don't think I'd want the books anywhere my gramma could ever accidentally pick them up!
So maybe a note inside the front or back cover, sort of like they've got grade level markers in some kids' books.
--- -- YAR! |
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11/6/2009, 5:07 pm
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